I don’t know why everybody is so upset about this ruling.
The trial court said he didn’t have absolute immunity. He said he did, and appealed. The appeals court said “no, you don’t have absolute immunity” and sent it back to thr trial court. He appealed again. SCOTUS could have reversed the trial court and appelate court. They did not. They upheld the appellate court decision, and said “no, you do not have absolute immunity. You only have immunity for official acts. Shove your appeal up your ass, we’re sending this back to the trial court.”
If he were legitimately convinced that the electoral college process was improper, it is his duty to pressure Pence not to certify. He can’t be criminally charged simply for pressuring Pence not to certify.
However, that same act of pressuring Pence can be considered a component of election fraud. He cannot be charged for merely pressuring Pence, but the act of pressuring Pence can be used as evidence of that wider fraud. The trial court is free to decide that the wider fraud is not an official act.
The VP’s role is ceremonial. He counts the votes and that’s it. He has zero power in the constitution to deny certification. The guy is on the ballot too FFS.
What the vice president’s duty is is not subjective. It’s prescribed in the constitution and clear as day. Donald Trump’s specious interpretation of his role is irrelevant.
Using that as evidence would fall under questioning his motivation and intent. That’s why the language about not being able to do that is in the decision.
Take conspiracy for example. The elements of conspiracy are:
Two or more people agreed to commit a crime
All conspirators had the specific intent to commit the crime
At least one of the conspirators committed an overt act
Trump conspires with false electors to rig the election. Trump’s is immune to charges stemming from his conversation with Pence, but he is not immune to charges of conspiring with false electors. His communication with Pence cannot be considered evidence of intent (#2), But it can be the overt act (#3) of the conspiracy.
They absolutely can question intent. They just can’t use an “official act” as evidence of intent. They can use all the “unofficial acts” they want to demonstrate intent. And, once they decide that the bribe was an unofficial act, the door is opened to use it for intent as well.
I feel like it is actually not his duty to be the judge of his own election and without any evidence attempt to subvert the election. And maybe, for him to not be in trouble for the actions he took, he should present a shred of evidence to support his actions. Because either he is right and there is evidence, he is evil and is desperately trying to do everything the founding fathers tried to prevent, or he is mentally ill. I feel like it’s a combo of the last two and the country needs protection against that.
His position would have to have proof to back it… Otherwise a president can be “convinced” of anything convenient and be immune from everything. It is a stupid position.
You reversed the burden of proof. In a criminal case, the accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty. It is the prosecutor - not the accused president - who has to do the proving.
Burden of proof applies to the legal system, sure…I am saying he would have to prove he was “convinced”…like if I shoot someone in self defense, I have to prove there was a threat to my person instead of me not liking their hat. It is proving my thought process leading up to the event.
like if I shoot someone in self defense, I have to prove there was a threat to my person instead of me not liking their hat.
No, you don’t. The last state to place the burden of proof on you for defending yourself was Ohio, but they repealed their unconstitutional “Affirmative Defense” requirement in 2019. In every state, the burden is on the prosecutor to prove that your actions were not defensive, not yours to prove they were.
Likewise, it is the prosecutor’s burden to prove he was fraudulently “convinced”.
The upsetting thing is that we think all Presidents should be accountable for their official acts as well as their unofficial ones. We believe that nobody should ever be above the law.
I feel like “official acts” would be something like, say, if say a former president died while the US military was attempting to secure confidential documents being stored at a golf resort, the sitting president wouldn’t be charged with murder, however, if you were to say, incite a riot and Order an elected official to defy election results to push the election that you clearly lost in your direction, you would not be protected. Since you are working in your own interests, not the interests of the country.
The immunity the court is talking about means they can’t be charged with murder for sending troops to war. Such an act is not “above the law”. The law specifically authorizes the president to perform such an act.
The legal remedy for a president who improperly sending troops to war is impeachment, not a criminal charge.
The president’s immunity extends only to those acts that he is specifically authorized by law to perform. Those are “official” acts. The acts that Trump is accused of are well outside the scope of his former office. The trial court is going to burn his ass. SCOTUS didn’t save him.
I’m not sure they defined what an official act is yet. So I assume that will be challenged by Trump in the lower courts and make it’s way up to the scouts. And based on this season’s decisions, I would assume they find in favor of Trump.
While not explaining what an “official act” is. Every trial involving Trump is severely hamstrung right now because they’ll have to litigate whether or not every single crime was an “official act.”
Biden could just declare Trump or whoever an enemy of the state then “officially” drone strike them and he’d probably die of old age before any courts untangled that mess.
If swiping documents and selling them to foreign governments is an official act, and the Court seems to believe it should be assumed that, then i don’t see why not.
You also missed the part where SCOTUS said official acts can’t be admitted as evidence. So what if a President gets $5B from some company so regulators look the other way. A jury would only hear, at best, that a President received money for an act that never occurred.
The court only has to “presume” it was an official act. That presumption is rebuttable. The prosecutor would present an argument that such a bribe was not an “official” act; the judge is free to accept that argument.
In ordinary situations, you’re presumed innocent until proven guilty. When you’re the president, according to SCOTUS, it’s presumed that the law doesn’t even apply to you because of immunity. And proving that it applies to you requires proving that what you did was or was not a nebulously defined “official act.”
This ruling will make it virtually impossible to convict a former president of anything.
“Only”. This is exactly why they issued such a nebulous decision, so people like you will say, “Look! It’s not actually unlimited!” The only act they give any specific answer for is the president’s right to prosecute anyone they want without justification, which they say is a-ok. Everything else they sent back to the district courts, not to “shove it up his ass”, but because they are the “court of final review and not first view”. In other words, they’ll deem it all “official acts” later, when (they hope) Trump is in office and this pony show won’t matter anymore.
The Court now confronts a question it has never had to answer in the Nation’s history: Whether a former President enjoys immunity from federal criminal prosecution. The majority thinks he should, and so it invents an atextual, ahistorical, and unjustifiable immunity that puts the President above the law.
The majority makes three moves that, in effect, completely insulate Presidents from criminal liability. First, the majority creates absolute immunity for the President’s exercise of “core constitutional powers.” Ante, at 6. This holding is unnecessary on the facts of the indictment, and the majority’s attempt to apply it to the facts expands the concept of core powers beyond any recognizable bounds. In any event, it is quickly eclipsed by the second move, which is to create expansive immunity for all “official act[s].” Ante, at 14. Whether described as presumptive or absolute, under the majority’s rule, a President’s use of any official power for any purpose, even the most corrupt, is immune from prosecution. That is just as bad as it sounds, and it is baseless. Finally, the majority declares that evidence concerning acts for which the President is immune can play no role in any criminal prosecution against him. See ante, at 30–32. That holding, which will prevent the Government from using a President’s official acts to prove knowledge or intent in prosecuting private offenses, is nonsensical.
I don’t know why everybody is so upset about this ruling.
The trial court said he didn’t have absolute immunity. He said he did, and appealed. The appeals court said “no, you don’t have absolute immunity” and sent it back to thr trial court. He appealed again. SCOTUS could have reversed the trial court and appelate court. They did not. They upheld the appellate court decision, and said “no, you do not have absolute immunity. You only have immunity for official acts. Shove your appeal up your ass, we’re sending this back to the trial court.”
They ruled against him, folks.
They also said pressuring Pence to rig the election was probably fine. Not ok.
If he were legitimately convinced that the electoral college process was improper, it is his duty to pressure Pence not to certify. He can’t be criminally charged simply for pressuring Pence not to certify.
However, that same act of pressuring Pence can be considered a component of election fraud. He cannot be charged for merely pressuring Pence, but the act of pressuring Pence can be used as evidence of that wider fraud. The trial court is free to decide that the wider fraud is not an official act.
What? His duty?
The VP’s role is ceremonial. He counts the votes and that’s it. He has zero power in the constitution to deny certification. The guy is on the ballot too FFS.
You know that’s bullshit.
What the vice president’s duty is is not subjective. It’s prescribed in the constitution and clear as day. Donald Trump’s specious interpretation of his role is irrelevant.
Using that as evidence would fall under questioning his motivation and intent. That’s why the language about not being able to do that is in the decision.
Take conspiracy for example. The elements of conspiracy are:
Two or more people agreed to commit a crime
All conspirators had the specific intent to commit the crime
At least one of the conspirators committed an overt act
Trump conspires with false electors to rig the election. Trump’s is immune to charges stemming from his conversation with Pence, but he is not immune to charges of conspiring with false electors. His communication with Pence cannot be considered evidence of intent (#2), But it can be the overt act (#3) of the conspiracy.
The courts can’t even raise issue 2. That’s what you’re missing. Courts aren’t allowed to question the President’s intent.
How can you prove conspiracy if you can’t prove that all conspirators intended to commit a crime?
They absolutely can question intent. They just can’t use an “official act” as evidence of intent. They can use all the “unofficial acts” they want to demonstrate intent. And, once they decide that the bribe was an unofficial act, the door is opened to use it for intent as well.
I feel like it is actually not his duty to be the judge of his own election and without any evidence attempt to subvert the election. And maybe, for him to not be in trouble for the actions he took, he should present a shred of evidence to support his actions. Because either he is right and there is evidence, he is evil and is desperately trying to do everything the founding fathers tried to prevent, or he is mentally ill. I feel like it’s a combo of the last two and the country needs protection against that.
His position would have to have proof to back it… Otherwise a president can be “convinced” of anything convenient and be immune from everything. It is a stupid position.
You reversed the burden of proof. In a criminal case, the accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty. It is the prosecutor - not the accused president - who has to do the proving.
Burden of proof applies to the legal system, sure…I am saying he would have to prove he was “convinced”…like if I shoot someone in self defense, I have to prove there was a threat to my person instead of me not liking their hat. It is proving my thought process leading up to the event.
No, you don’t. The last state to place the burden of proof on you for defending yourself was Ohio, but they repealed their unconstitutional “Affirmative Defense” requirement in 2019. In every state, the burden is on the prosecutor to prove that your actions were not defensive, not yours to prove they were.
Likewise, it is the prosecutor’s burden to prove he was fraudulently “convinced”.
That definately makes killing folks a whole lot easier, as long as I am the only witness. “I defended myself, prove otherwise…kthnxbai!”.
The upsetting thing is that we think all Presidents should be accountable for their official acts as well as their unofficial ones. We believe that nobody should ever be above the law.
As long as the law polices itself, those in it will always view themselves as above it.
I feel like “official acts” would be something like, say, if say a former president died while the US military was attempting to secure confidential documents being stored at a golf resort, the sitting president wouldn’t be charged with murder, however, if you were to say, incite a riot and Order an elected official to defy election results to push the election that you clearly lost in your direction, you would not be protected. Since you are working in your own interests, not the interests of the country.
The immunity the court is talking about means they can’t be charged with murder for sending troops to war. Such an act is not “above the law”. The law specifically authorizes the president to perform such an act.
The legal remedy for a president who improperly sending troops to war is impeachment, not a criminal charge.
The president’s immunity extends only to those acts that he is specifically authorized by law to perform. Those are “official” acts. The acts that Trump is accused of are well outside the scope of his former office. The trial court is going to burn his ass. SCOTUS didn’t save him.
Even the dissenting supreme court justices stated the opposite of what you’re spinning.
No.
I’m not sure they defined what an official act is yet. So I assume that will be challenged by Trump in the lower courts and make it’s way up to the scouts. And based on this season’s decisions, I would assume they find in favor of Trump.
While not explaining what an “official act” is. Every trial involving Trump is severely hamstrung right now because they’ll have to litigate whether or not every single crime was an “official act.”
Biden could just declare Trump or whoever an enemy of the state then “officially” drone strike them and he’d probably die of old age before any courts untangled that mess.
I wonder if Watergate would have been an official act according to this new doctrine.
It definitely would have been called that, absolutely.
If swiping documents and selling them to foreign governments is an official act, and the Court seems to believe it should be assumed that, then i don’t see why not.
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You also missed the part where SCOTUS said official acts can’t be admitted as evidence. So what if a President gets $5B from some company so regulators look the other way. A jury would only hear, at best, that a President received money for an act that never occurred.
The court only has to “presume” it was an official act. That presumption is rebuttable. The prosecutor would present an argument that such a bribe was not an “official” act; the judge is free to accept that argument.
In ordinary situations, you’re presumed innocent until proven guilty. When you’re the president, according to SCOTUS, it’s presumed that the law doesn’t even apply to you because of immunity. And proving that it applies to you requires proving that what you did was or was not a nebulously defined “official act.”
This ruling will make it virtually impossible to convict a former president of anything.
The official act is telling a department to give special treatment to a company. That’s out of bounds for trial.
That is presumptively out of bounds for trial. That is a rebuttable presumption.
As president, I officially declare Trump a terrorist and award a $5 million bounty for his head on a copper platter.
Best I can do is his clogged up heart on a plastic cutting board from IKEA…
“Only”. This is exactly why they issued such a nebulous decision, so people like you will say, “Look! It’s not actually unlimited!” The only act they give any specific answer for is the president’s right to prosecute anyone they want without justification, which they say is a-ok. Everything else they sent back to the district courts, not to “shove it up his ass”, but because they are the “court of final review and not first view”. In other words, they’ll deem it all “official acts” later, when (they hope) Trump is in office and this pony show won’t matter anymore.
Sotomayor dissenting opinion