ooooh I love this. Proton is just winning constantly these days.
No they’re not. They can’t even finish a single solution, let alone actually make anything functional when you’re not using their proprietary servers. They’re becoming Microsoft.
They can’t finish a single solution
Gee, it’s almost as if that’s the whole point of an ever-evolving SaaS platform.
A SaaS solution that claims to be private but won’t provide the backend code to prove it. You don’t find it at all suspicious that they claim releasing backend code would make it less secure? What kind of security product is not open for inspection? The same kind of “security” you get from Microsoft.
I imagine it probably is inspected, just not by the public. They probably do it themselves.
And they may have contracts with certain companies specializing in this sort of security that also inspect it.
And there’s also the cybersecurity companies that test it whether they’re contracted or not. At some companies, their entire job revolves around finding bugs (especially security bugs) in other companies’ software.
Just because it’s not on GitHub doesn’t mean it’s not a good product that hasn’t been thoroughly tested.
You realize that Microsoft code is inspected as well, even more heavily and regulated… and yet they still end up with major breaches. Security evolves through open source collaboration and inspection by experts that aren’t being paid to say you’re doing a good job.
You don’t find it at all suspicious that they claim releasing backend code would make it less secure? What kind of security product is not open for inspection?
No, because Proton has 3rd party audits all the time and they share the results openly.
Microsoft has third party audits all the time and say they’re secure, and then you learn of new backdoors every 6 months. Audit companies are unreliable and paid to give good feedback while doing the least work possible.
Yeah because enterprises primarily use a ton of open source security tools…
ಠ_ಠ
Enterprises are using a plethora of open source tools at this point. They may still utilize closed source solutions, but they definitely have quite a bit of open source solutions tied in.
Releasing unfinished products and expect users to just make do while they launch the next product can’t be the solution either.
Then it’s a good thing all of their products are fully functional and working as advertised, I guess.
Sure, whatever you want to belief :)
Which bits are not functional? I’m using their email and calendar… they aren’t completely polished, but they’re very usable.
Drive has no Linux client, Photos is extremely barebones and locks you basically in, as there is no export function.
Pass still has no proper SimpleLogin integration, no credit card support and UX wise is the browser extension pretty bad. Funny enough, years after launch you still can’t auto fill on Reddit.
The only thing I don’t like about Mail is that you still have to create reverse aliases through SimpleLogin. Better integration would be great.
Contacts still don’t sync to you local mobile contacts. Which means you either do it manually or you have to keep two sets updated.
Calendar is good too, I’ve heard it has no offline support though. Although I haven’t verified that.
Last thing I would like to see is notification support without Play Services.
Some of those things might be super unimportant to some, but for me it makes the use of their stuff unnecessary cumbersome. Especially if you consider that those are all Proton products and should work together well.
My by far biggest problem is their communication and general development speed though. Stuff like contact sync has been requested for 5(?) years now but there hasn’t been so much as a “we’re working on it”.
It feels to me they come out with new products all the time, like the document editor now, without addressing the little things that would make their ecosystem great.
Anyway, long ramble. But I appreciate that you asked for more details without insulting me.
All Their services are online based right? I don’t understand why using their proprietary servers is an argument here.
So, if you want to have any sense of a service respecting you, it should be hosted on a server you can control?
No difference at all between the server of the world’s biggest advertiser and a server by a company that opens itself for audits and is in a country whole laws require no bullshit? Are you sure those two are the same? All or nothing?
Was that reply for me?
Because their primary audience is those gullible enough to believe they somehow can’t read your messages, yet they can easily capture your private password.
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Damn. Proton is doing a good job of stacking up W’s these days.
They act just like Microsoft. Lot’s of people think Microsoft is successful. If you think Microsoft is the champion of privacy though you might be in a cult.
Comparing proton with Microsoft like this is a joke.
Really? So Proton saying that they can’t open source the backend code to improve security isn’t something Microsoft would say as well? Proton sells statements, but they don’t back up those statements with proof.
Exposing their backend code to the public would be inviting bad actors to find loopholes in the logic. Your excuse for how they’re not secure is in fact one of their security features. No code is perfect, and you give enough people enough time to peruse through your software they’ll find a flaw to exploit. So they only provide their code to 3rd party audit companies they trust.
Sounds just like Microsoft to me.
I’ll tell you what. When proton ships a product that takes a screenshot of my desktop every 5 seconds and stores it in an unsecured DB any user on my computer can access, we’ll call them even.
I’ll tell you what. If you can prove to me by pointing to the specific source code that would prevent Proton from capturing your private key password when you login or decrypt using their standard clients then I’ll join the Proton cult.
This simply isn’t really possible.
Even if they published open-source code for their backend, it wouldn’t prove that it’s actually what their systems are running.
And when you are storing your data on their servers, and decrypting it by sending over your password, there’s no way you can actually truly prevent them from accessing your data, if they were to modify how their systems function overall. (this is true for every company)
Even if they were using zero-knowledge proofs to verify and prove to you the computation done on the server matched what would be expected from published open-source code, then either their very own systems (and by extension, their administrators), or a different company’s proprietary TPM module, would be the root of trust for those ZK proofs, and would still have the same underlying trust assumptions of at least 1 company having the ability to potentially steal your information.
If you want to rail against Proton for this, you have to be against every single cloud-based instance of code that hosts encrypted data, by any company, for any user.
Saying Proton acts just like Microsoft is a laughable comparison to make in order to justify claiming a lack of privacy or security on Proton’s part.
Why? Is it because they’re both companies that offer online services? Guess what, loads of companies do that. But you know what Proton doesn’t do? Give away the contents of people’s files, like Microsoft states they do in their own transparency reports, that they conveniently stopped publishing in 2022. Microsoft handed over the content (not just IP, email, etc, but actual docs, communications, stored files, etc) of thousands of people’s accounts to law enforcement. Proton hasn’t given out content once.
And this doesn’t even consider the fact that Proton’s business model is privacy. For Microsoft, their users will keep using their services regardless of their privacy, but for Proton, if it comes out that their services are no longer private, nobody will use them anymore, because nobody who got them for privacy would need them at that point.
prove to me by pointing to the specific source code that would prevent Proton from your private key password
You want them to point to code (that’s not publicly available) that prevents Proton from capturing credentials?
What a dumb hoop to tell someone to jump through. Do you expect someone to actually post a block of code? Would you even be able to read it?
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Yes I can read it. You think I’m an f’ing idiot?
I mean, you’re certainly not providing much proof that you have any measurable software skills that enables you to do the proper evaluation even if you received the code from proton. Why should anyone believe this unsubstantiated claim from you?
Edit: for the record, I’m don’t give a shit and I’m just yanking your chain here.
I’m a black belt in TypeScript, JavaScript, Go, Rust, C, C++, Python & can read and write assembly with my eyes closed, okay?😉
Such source code isn’t possible with the general audience service they offer, even if being open source were a requirement for credibility in any way.
You’re comparing them to a company with a long history of actively hostile behavior despite the fact that there’s never been a single hint of anything resembling hostile behavior from them, they operate from a country with meaningful privacy protections and only surrender data when compelled by their own courts (who only do so in circumstances that actually warrant it), and haven’t actually given up information that’s useful when required to because they don’t have it.
The only open source mentioned in the post is their encryption. Not the document editing software. OP please remove your change to the article title, it’s extremely misleading.
Fair enough! That’s exciting news
Well, they’re not wrong. It is ‘open-source’, not Free Software.
? It’s not open source, AFAIK.
Open source ? Does that mean I can host my own ? Would it be compatible with other self hosted instance ?
EDIT: the only source code I found hasn’t been maintained for 3 years.
As I’ve slowly been expanding my homelab, NextCloud caught my attention. I haven’t tried it quite yet, but it might be closer to what you’re looking for.
Thanks, I’ll have a look
If you do want to host your own google docs, look into Onlyoffice, or LibreOffice with Collabora
Proton at this very moment
I CANT STOP WINNING!
Just signed up today for the family plan in my ongoing degoogling process
It’s a bit pricey but so far loving it. Specially Proton Pass, coming from bitwarden (which I liked), it’s nicer and faster, much faster
Don’t put all your eggs in one basket again, that’s what makes degoogling such a difficult thing. There’s several proton services I intentionally avoid and use alternatives for so I don’t have to uproot my entire digital life to leave them if they start being shitty. If you go from using all google services to all proton you’re setting yourself up to need the same sort of big migration down the road. 15 years ago google was also an awesome company that kept making incredibly useful things for users just because they could and look at them now.
Maps is what makes degoogling hard ;p
Everything else is pretty straightforward.
Does pass support custom url filters yet? I self host and so I have a lot of 192.168 bookmarks…when I tried pass it had no way to organize them by url prefix (port number).
Good question, don’t know.
I’ll check it out and report back
Seems to work fine on my web front to deluge
Unfortunately it doesn’t yet. Having same issue.
And so what happens to your passwords if Proton were to go offline and you needed to continue using Proton Pass? Do they have an open source server you can use like Bitwarden does or vaultwarden? Or are you essentially locking yourself into a new walled garden for no reason other than name recognition? Why not just use KeePassXC which is encrypted locally rather than share your password with a third party who can easily capture your private key password?
I think a lot of these cloud-based password vaults will have a local database that syncs with the cloud. I think you can unlock them and access your passwords without internet access
Keyword… unlock, not add information or use them offline where they can sync to an open source backend. They are cloud-based password managers that are designed to operate online. The backend is not open source. It is designed to lock you into a walled garden.
The unlocking happens locally. it’s simply decrypting. also, i think you can export the data from proton pass.
it’s a cloud solution. keepassxc works great and I don’t know why you want something else to replace it
Browser integration with quality biometric login is a beautiful thing. Keepass’ implementation of both is trash, and keepassxc’s browser integration may actually be worse than the original.
That having been said I always recommend to people they use two managers, with keepass being the secure base for things you don’t often need convenient access to like savings accounts, password manager passwords, tax services, etc.
bitwarden, proton, et al I use for the day-to-day…I don’t give any fucks if my Lemmy account is lost for example.
Proton Pass works offline. Proton isn’t a walled garden.
“A walled garden is a garden enclosed by high walls, especially when this is done for horticultural rather than security purposes, although originally all gardens may have been enclosed for protection from animal or human intruders.”
Agreed proton isn’t this
"A closed platform, walled garden, or closed ecosystem[1][2] is a software system wherein the carrier or service provider has control over applications, content, and/or media, and restricts convenient access to non-approved applicants or content. "
Try using thunderbird and id argue proton is this
Still, that seems like a combo of “comes with the territory of encrypted email” and “their software could use some major improvements”. I think closed platform is closed by design.
Nah, fundamentally proton uses the same encryption as everyone else, they just have a central server to exchange keys rather than one of the open servers.
As everyone else like who? Gmail doesn’t do client side E2E encryption at all.
It will cache credentials for a short time so you can still access some of your passwords. It will not let you add new credentials. It’s like a web browser working in offline mode for a period of time. It is a cloud-based password manager with a closed-source server backend.
Because of their integration with simplelogin.
Vaultwarden/Bitwarden integrate with SimpleLogin… and they offer other alias service providers as well.
Deeply curious about the down votes, isn’t this accurate?
Because the guy criticize Proton in every thread in the comments and clearly sealioning.
Oh…I don’t usually see what other places people post unless they truly suck.
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Doesn’t appear you can do anything of that via the Drive mobile app. Maybe one day they will make that possible.
If they can ever get a spreadsheet application I could fully get away from Google for that kind of thing without losing out on anything I care about.
I know there are different use cases for each, but generally do people prefer self hosted nextcloud, proton docs, or libre office?
FWIW collabora and open office can integrate with other clouds like Seafile and owncloud Infinite scale. So even without NextCloud it can be used. It can also be used stand alone.
wake me when we can use them as a saml provider
Finally. This and decent photo app is what Proton needed. Hoping they would keep going on this path
Immich is amazing as an app with a self hosted backend service.
They’re just too expensive. Like, sure, it costs money to run, but 3.49€/month (the discounted 24 month rate) for the mail only plan, 15 GB storage. (41.88€, $45.17 USD, $67.28 AUD per year)
That’s really expensive if you just want mail.
The other stuff, is also really expensive. To the point that makes you think, “there is no way google is making THIS much to make up the difference in advertising to me for a comparable plan”.
remember, it’s not just about making up the difference per user in advertising, it’s about getting and keeping as many people into their ecosystem as possible.
then they make some cash from selling data, and having more data to scrape to train their models and such. proton isnt making any off your data
it’d be great to be able to easily compare cost and expense, but companies obscure so much in the backend. rental car companies buy discounted in bulk, then sell the cars tens of thousands of miles later at a profit, and that’s before any income from rental
If you just need an email account I’d suggest to have a look at posteo.de. I am with them for many years now. Price is good and terms also.
Switched to them in 2022 after a 2-year of proton precisely because the revised proton plans were weird and because id heard a lot of negative stories about getting locked out (from the proton side, not losing password). Ironically I almost just went thru the lockout process but thankfully the email support guy was able to get things sorted.
Tbh I miss nothing and since I use simple login or anonaddy for most misc things, switching was easy. My proton account is de facto dead…I wouldn’t refuse to return, but I’m really just an a la carte guy.
Are they trying to become Google alternative?
Great, hopefully it is as useful. Surveys and such are a must for any migration.
Interesting. I will try to find out if it’s 1:1 in handling .docx like OnlyOffice which i hope it is. It sucks that OnlyOffice won’t run natively on Wayland.
It is fork of onlyoffice, https://www.onlyoffice.com/blog/2023/07/self-hosted-onlyoffice-docspace
Ehhh It is? Thanks for letting me know cause i didnt know that
notice the lack of the word ‘free’
Get started by creating a free Proton Drive account today (if you don’t already have one). We are rolling out Docs starting today, and the feature will be available to all users over the next couple of days.
You can use it for free ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Specify that, “free” means two things in English, otherwise use “libre”, which means freedom in Spanish and it’s sometimes used to refer to free or libre software.
You’re both as bad as each other
